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difference between iraqi tumbler and turkish

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:58 pm
by tumblers
hi
How can you tell the difference between the iraqi tumblers and the turkish takla? I read in some of your topic's you say that the turkish tumbler in Australian have the iraqi bloodline.
A year ago i brought 5 pairs of turkish tumbler to be honest the birds are not very good at all they do not fly or tumble if they do they only tumble once or twice. In that lot of there was only 1 good bird but it kept landing in the tree close to the coop and wouldn't come down for 2-3 days not even for food or water. And then went it finally got down it wouldn't fly down it would just jump from one brunch to another till it go to the top of the coop but when he was flying he would fly for 3-4 hours every 2-3 days. But unfortunately one day when he went for a fly we never saw him again.

Recently i have brought 5 pairs from a well known turkish breeder in a different state from me in australia he shipped the birds and when i received them i flew them in our garage some tumbled up to five times they are very light and look longer than the once i previously purchased. Four days later i flew one hen to see how it flew in the sky. It started to fly low between houses and trees and then then went it went to tumble it climbed up and the tumbled 4-5 times. I flew a couple birds up so it would come down but it didn't it continued flying for another 20 minutes before it decided to fly away for around 20 minutes then it came back again then started flying around the house about 10 times then flew away again it kept doing the same thing until it started to get dark then it came back and got down?
How can i get good performance birds from these birds ? when i breed them but i cant fly them at the moment because there is two many hawks in this area and i want to breed from them 1st because its taken me a long time to find good birds like this in Australia
thank you for your help

Re: difference between iraqi tumbler and turkish

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:12 pm
by Birdman79
I believe inbreeding has alot to do with birds not being able to perform.They'll need to be outcrossed because the blood becomes to tight.Just my 2 cents....

Re: difference between iraqi tumbler and turkish

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:28 pm
by hasseian_313
ok just likethir are many turkish verities iraqi tumblers are the same
one iraqi pigeons should be longer shorter muffs peral to glass eyes or white eyes no red or yellow eyes only solid whites should have dark eyes
no splashes or white spots are accepted the fly 8hr and up and must come close to landing piont and tumble stright up the colors beak must be wight and not short this is for the southern verity but northen birds are more like turkish breeds and the birds cant come down is pluse in iraqi it means the bird has a great erge to shoot up and tumble some have cNT EVEN COME DOWN FROM 2 FEET LEDGE it just the way we breed em and red birds are rare in iraq and some breeders dislike em b but almond /grizzal and any splach or mix color si not accepted . thank you

Re: difference between iraqi tumbler and turkish

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:21 am
by Kurt Gürsu
Birdman79 wrote:I believe inbreeding has alot to do with birds not being able to perform.They'll need to be outcrossed because the blood becomes to tight.Just my 2 cents....

Very much of a valid point in many cases.

Re: difference between iraqi tumbler and turkish

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:48 am
by Kurt Gürsu
tumblers wrote:hi
A year ago i brought 5 pairs of turkish tumbler to be honest the birds are not very good at all they do not fly or tumble if they do they only tumble once or twice. In that lot of there was only 1 good bird but it kept landing in the tree close to the coop and wouldn't come down for 2-3 days not even for food or water. And then went it finally got down it wouldn't fly down it would just jump from one brunch to another till it go to the top of the coop but when he was flying he would fly for 3-4 hours every 2-3 days. But unfortunately one day when he went for a fly we never saw him again.

Since I don't know the birds you purchased and the information is limited, I can only make a few generic comments here:
How old were these birds you purchased? Have they been trained?
Buying new birds there are 3 options:
Buy breeding pairs over a year old and not fly them. Test their young. Since the parents are older and you are not sure about their training it would be a waste of a time to try to fly them and judge the bloodline by their performance.
Buy very young birds, who have just left the nest and started eating on their own. Get these birds in to the air as soon as possible. Young birds who have not been flown and are 4-5 months old will not have developed their muscles properly and will give you a lot of difficulty. Simply getting them to fly might be a hassle.
Buy a fully trained bird with no bad habits and after getting it used to your loft for 4-5 weeks slowly get him in the air. For this kind of a purchase you must see the bird flying at his home loft and it might cost you a lot more compared to others.

As far as the bird that was landing on the trees: This bird from the first time he landed on the trees has shown you it has a very bad habit. Maybe it developed this behaviour while being trained in his original loft or maybe he was released in your coop before he got used to the new environment and did not know what to do. In any case by tree hoping it told you that you must not continue to fly him and it is not a trainable bird. It is very normal and expected for that bird to get lost or not to come back one day.

tumblers wrote:Recently i have brought 5 pairs from a well known turkish breeder in a different state from me in australia he shipped the birds and when i received them i flew them in our garage some tumbled up to five times they are very light and look longer than the once i previously purchased. Four days later i flew one hen to see how it flew in the sky. It started to fly low between houses and trees and then then went it went to tumble it climbed up and the tumbled 4-5 times. I flew a couple birds up so it would come down but it didn't it continued flying for another 20 minutes before it decided to fly away for around 20 minutes then it came back again then started flying around the house about 10 times then flew away again it kept doing the same thing until it started to get dark then it came back and got down?
How can i get good performance birds from these birds ? when i breed them but i cant fly them at the moment because there is two many hawks in this area and i want to breed from them 1st because its taken me a long time to find good birds like this in Australia
thank you for your help

After getting the 5 new pairs, the thing to do was to put them in a breeder coop and get young birds from them.
Testing them in the garage is pointless. All that can be tested in that environment is if they have strong wing sounds.
Tumbling in a room is not an indication of any sort of a performance. All it will tell you is they are tumblers but you already know that.

Flying an adult bird after 4 days is asking for trouble and definitely will result in you judging the bird wrong.
However, you were lucky the bird came back.
I am saying you were lucky because it was obviously a trained bird.
It could have look for her home or just become a tree hugger like the bird from the previous batch.

Anyway, I understand the issues with the hawks. Similar deal here.
Is it seasonal at least?
Here most of the predatory birds migrate north starting the second week of April and come back around the second week of October.
This gives us a window of about 6 months to train birds and only deal with the local hawks and falcons.
Then again there are guys who fly year round regardless.
At times I do this also but 3 years ago I lost 38 birds in a 12 month period because of this.

Bottom line is you have to fly.
The birds you got from someone else won't do it.
You have to see the potential of your birds in your hands with your own training.

I hope this helps.

Re: difference between iraqi tumbler and turkish

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:08 am
by hasseian_313
another thing about iraqi tumbers and some turkish tumblers that i see if the dont fly they get vary heavy and cant fly anymore we usally fly a bird for a year and the next year its is a breeder

Re: difference between iraqi tumbler and turkish

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:38 pm
by tumblers
Well I disagree about what you said tumbling in garage or room pointless .
firstly not all turkish tumblers do this only the good birds from a good bloodline second you mentioned that (Good bloodlines must get daily exercise or it becomes unable to fly from tumbling) in my opinion tumbling in the garage that indicate to a good bloodline .
my question here lets say i bought a good birds trained how can you train their offspring when you don't have any adult to fly them with ?
also do they pass their helicopter flying style generic or do you have to train them ?
thanks

Re: difference between iraqi tumbler and turkish

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:08 am
by hasseian_313
see for one i was talking about iraqi tumblers 2 if they dont fly at all for a while they get heavy and i used regular tipplers to train mine becuse tipplers fly long but easy to bring down to land at your house i never mentiond a gurage and inbreding is not allways bad i mean my i have birds bloodline goes back to the 60s in iraq

Re: difference between iraqi tumbler and turkish

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:36 pm
by Kurt Gürsu
tumblers wrote:Well I disagree about what you said tumbling in garage or room pointless .
firstly not all turkish tumblers do this only the good birds from a good bloodline second you mentioned that (Good bloodlines must get daily exercise or it becomes unable to fly from tumbling) in my opinion tumbling in the garage that indicate to a good bloodline.

It is quiet OK to disagree.
I certainly don't know it all.
However, the information I try to share here are not just my own thoughts but what is considered to be a breed standard with in the fanciers.
I am not sure if you speak Turkish or not but if you do you are more then welcome to share the information I have given out here with fanciers in the Turkish Pigeon Breeders Associations website and see what kind of an answer you get.
There are several thousand breeders and quiet a few master breeders/champions there.
Here is the website: TGYB
In any case, please take what I share here with a grain of salt.

About the garage or room tumbling:
Why do I say it is a waste of time?
It is a waste of time because all it will tell you is the bird you released in the room was flown for a time period or not.
Any Turkish Tumbler that has seen some what of a decent training will perform in the room.
I think, it is sufficient to ask the person you are buying the bird if they have flown them or not.
The performance you see in the room will give no indication of what kind of performance you will see in the air.
After all, this is a breed that is raised for a specific performance and that performance can only be judged in the air.

Kurt Gürsu wrote:Buying new birds there are 3 options:
Buy breeding pairs over a year old and not fly them. Test their young. Since the parents are older and you are not sure about their training it would be a waste of a time to try to fly them and judge the bloodline by their performance.
Buy very young birds, who have just left the nest and started eating on their own. Get these birds in to the air as soon as possible. Young birds who have not been flown and are 4-5 months old will not have developed their muscles properly and will give you a lot of difficulty. Simply getting them to fly might be a hassle.
Buy a fully trained bird with no bad habits and after getting it used to your loft for 4-5 weeks slowly get him in the air. For this kind of a purchase you must see the bird flying at his home loft and it might cost you a lot more compared to others.


So,
If you go with option 1, then if the bird is flown or not, or if tumbles in the room or not will not matter.
What you are after is to find out what kind of performance you will get from their young.

If you go with the option 2, then there is no point of releasing this bird in the room because it has not been trained and if the room test is what we measure the bird with, we will have to say this bird is not a good bird and we will be sadly mistaken.

If you go with the option 3, then you don't have to release the bird in a room since you have seen this bird in the air and liked what you saw any way. What you will see in the room won't change your decision.

tumblers wrote:my question here lets say i bought a good birds trained how can you train their offspring when you don't have any adult to fly them with ?

All you need the older birds in training for is to expedite the training of the young birds.
You can very easliy train the young birds by themselves also.
Since there won't be any bird with them that will respond to droppers you just have to be a bit more careful.
Even if you use adult birds for training you wouldn't want a fully performing bird any way with the young birds.
All that will do is result in loss of young birds since the fully trained adult bird will not just stay right above the loft.

tumblers wrote:also do they pass their helicopter flying style generic or do you have to train them ?

It is in their genes. What we call training is very similar to the training an athlete gets. Stamina and discipline.
A true Turkish Tumbler will always perform.
Then you come into the picture to get the best performance out of your stock birds by different breeding and training techniques.

Re: difference between iraqi tumbler and turkish

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:49 pm
by Kurt Gürsu
hasseian_313 wrote:another thing about iraqi tumbers and some turkish tumblers that i see if the dont fly they get vary heavy and cant fly anymore we usally fly a bird for a year and the next year its is a breeder

This is a problem that can be prevented by careful breeding and training program.
Simple explanation:
Separate your breeders during winter.
Month and a half before you start your training program put them together.
(Our training season starts the second week of April due to the hawk migration.)
Fly the first round of babies until the training season ends.
(Ours end about the second week of October, again due to the hawk migration)
If you are able to fly 12 months a year then you are lucky and do that.
(But remember, never fly the birds on the eggs and never fly them while any one of the first 3 primaries are in molt)
So, lets say we flown these young birds for 6 months and then grounded them for 6 months.
During the grounding period do not pair them.
Month and a half before the date you decide to fly them pair them and get a pair of young birds from them.
While feeding their first young they will shed off most of their excess fat.
Then get them in the air.
Be patient at this point.
The performance will be different then how they were before grounding them.
So, if your bird was flying for couple of hours before now you will get 15 minutes or so from it.
This is very much OK.
As you give it flight time each day it will increase it is time and gain its old muscle mass.

Re: difference between iraqi tumbler and turkish

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:10 am
by hasseian_313
ypu my be right becuse i kno turkish birds are lighter and do fly multiple years and the birds can fly next but it hard work sence they all have the same blood line we just every year fly yong ones